4 10 79 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/21840/archive/files/672734b07574164631b539b6e9dad338.jpg?Expires=1774483200&Signature=KpP-4K2uNVLPMZaEmmmk7l5qIKHyeXr9Un6MNGS%7EFcZu5DacCu5%7EII5zjWyM3orlAOWJMWrkMMQNsZWdWevRbBqlVYYcNI12rfxDn5RcXdW1EarFbsL92UiKQkickFxQ4BXYR0Wa36mC2FELaV%7EBm8qjEEVvKDfCtNEIG7NUnLMHVHRNnHdxiOzB7jMVQII-QAtOmJRPhMYQCnao1Z6X8nQHgEr0sDeiq%7EMvg-t5L0LTse8p9q9qglcwhN8uEOdGO4xWAgG14UAD-VMV-zx1ECH7CsbvSsYP6Pb%7EpWp7UulNsU2D5UHOQU%7EywRaYJlgGhluHN3BOxp4KFcIl2UBoPg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM bcac08e2a65bf04ce07e946eec947a14 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Canadian National Institute for the Blind archival fonds, Library and Archives Canada (LAC) Subject The topic of the resource the history of the CNIB, people who are blind and attendant technologies Description An account of the resource Items in this collection consist of records of the CNIB from the early 20th century onward, including correspondence, memos, programs, catalogues, etc. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CNIB, LAC Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Library and Archives Canada Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Carleton University's Disability Research Group Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1900s Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource CNIB, open Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text files and photographs Language A language of the resource English Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Canada Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data photograph [newsclipping] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Photograph of eight displaced people who were blind and their families after arriving at the Montreal Airport, to be resettled in Canada, 18 January 1951 Subject The topic of the resource Postwar refugees, displaced people who are blind Description An account of the resource A photograph of a few of the eight people who were blind and their families who were displaced following the Second World War and sponsored to come to Canada in 1951 by the Canadian National Institute for the Blind. They sit, having a coffee and waiting for their next flight to Toronto after first arriving at the Montreal Airport in the early morning hours of 18 January 1951. The majority of individuals are left unnamed, except Karol Gamrot and his guide dog, Utta. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Canadian National Institute for the Blind Fonds, box 49, file 11, R3647-0-9-E, Library and Archives Canada, Ottawa ON Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Carleton University's Disability Research Group Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 18 January 1951 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Montreal, Canada Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Canadian National Institute for the Blind 18 January 1951 Photograph of eight displaced people who were blind and their families after arriving at the Montreal Airport to be resettled in Canada https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/21840/archive/files/11df26e46253e9442dc47c59153c9985.jpg?Expires=1774483200&Signature=itzV72dchmO3D9wEg3PkWskd7VxwB3gmiRLYXUEoByF4rxpYTJu9TM5HhvFOI3f07oWYGxiRS-Nq7lTPQvmMO6NJkUWuHe50I2fq0j5Poj7j3iQ4fxY%7Ez2kTt0kcTy4z8pZcnrlLSDzoE9rQR%7E4-i495ZSjD%7EDSuWSsFsI1oZv7vLeGwLbofssA1IJPQtlDaHJyrkyZvAlO-v%7EkJfroFv9x0Z4LFWyFfpClLvuy8oiZSVnSoi4YjcXNuKjv3keUs0EtShRHqGfF5qBfvZCPxRCVkPfNnkTWjCiV33qVAPkXOiO2K1h9VscBpnvhaEtc38PPDd2lCHBcw3B8nOwWm4A__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM f78a0242d6e7649b5516679ccb33ecb7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Canadian National Institute for the Blind archival fonds, Library and Archives Canada (LAC) Subject The topic of the resource the history of the CNIB, people who are blind and attendant technologies Description An account of the resource Items in this collection consist of records of the CNIB from the early 20th century onward, including correspondence, memos, programs, catalogues, etc. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource CNIB, LAC Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Library and Archives Canada Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Carleton University's Disability Research Group Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1900s Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource CNIB, open Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource text files and photographs Language A language of the resource English Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Canada Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data photograph [news clipping] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Photograph of a few of the eight individuals who were blind, sponsored to come to Canada by the Canadian National Institute for the Blind, 1951. Subject The topic of the resource Postwar refugees, people who are blind Description An account of the resource This image, taken 18 January 1951, is of a few of the eight displaced people and their families who arrived in the early morning hours on this date at the Montreal Airport. They were met by members of the CNIB who sponsored them to come to Canada. The photograph depicts from left to right, CNIB acting superintendent, J.A. Godin, Marihane Gamrot, Liane Gamrot and Karol Gamrot with guide dog Utta, CNIB vice-chairman, R.W. Stafford, Karlis Grekers, Zelma Grekers Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Canadian National Institute for the Blind Fonds, box 49, file 11, R3647-0-9-E, Library and Archives Canada, Ottawa ON Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Carleton University's Disability Research Group Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 18 January 1951 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Montreal, Canada Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Canadian National Institute for the Blind CNIB acting superintendent CNIB vice-chairman is of a few of the eight displaced people and their families who arrived in the early morning hours on this date at the Montreal Airport. They were met by members of the CNIB who sponsored them to come to Canada. The photograph depicts from left to right J.A. Godin Karlis Grekers Liane Gamrot and Karol Gamrot with guide dog Utta Marihane Gamrot R.W. Stafford taken 18 January 1951 This image Zelma Grekers https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/21840/archive/files/f2712074bf9c1089e0cc102c0b647529.JPG?Expires=1774483200&Signature=d0%7EvlFEjy6lYABMhvnWcmuJIDNT3pVLLMvo-nD408i1IvWv6rzEpXWeDAFgaVcYtD6vbhJJwCepzLoHVVZ6F7eHw0XAX0lVtoxJQRro%7ELW1OChf1Vi9oNBrjyiDq8d9voJwkL7kSwYLlNudKxfOoC2J7FYDDXZxV1oUGKTiZAqLHTKCK%7EyGkT04ueVDSU88GjRA5%7EmDvLxjItfEBVPJOK%7ENawYNiqM6Yao%7EU7iGxY6NubnbHhDIZOvgMsFefhQ%7E7b1qaLsaIt9oHTAI0sZ7lIyQ2t9I5WLPNjgb0TNpKfTjK46Kgfi5Wx48IRWIQPLHAscky6wl8-rqloSESnIfF3g__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM cfa2c55838ecce9a004063f828c64586 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Private Collections Subject The topic of the resource Items related to assistive or adaptive technology and access more broadly conceived Description An account of the resource Items related to assistive or adaptive technology and access more broadly conceived, located in the homes and collections of private citizens. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The majority of photographs were taken by Beth A. Robertson with the permission of the individuals depicted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Carleton University's Disability Research Group Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Street signs at the corner of Bank and Queen, near RBC Subject The topic of the resource Assistive or accessible technology, accessible banking Description An account of the resource This is an image of the street signs at the corner of Bank and Queen, near the RBC Branch (99 Bank) where the world's first talking ATM was installed in 1997. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Photograph by Beth A. Robertson Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Royal Bank of Canada, Ottawa ON Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Carleton University's Disability Research Group Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 3 June 2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Photograph by Beth A. Robertson. Use with permission. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Ottawa, ON Ottawa ON RBC Street signs at the corner of Bank and Queen Talking ATM https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/21840/archive/files/728c48a669845bca7d12d5d2dca2d422.jpg?Expires=1774483200&Signature=tQfYVrFTBKcyda9ZXEqPp0EClNxyOSnvwFkD%7ErycKNGmDm1VmyGAWz8XtA2sQwe4JJr4UbLa2GgxX79rjVd9XSshbzaXDKl0GHIQk7cXXzT9rCzUGqPgLWWyzFJt%7E70rcbhfjvV3sAm8pnNYDg0XyFz0bmOaTyXbKChERnCMcKRF95c5XtKc0mIvkrHIE-aSMmhzZUEJ-qrL0U%7ENmQOkuDF5cfVAX5NY00XSplfpjJgQ5p04WaLe4el9uOwgeAbRZ67xmRRGTJxkcMzlDJxcNOmwxbgzGwtj84rpvurkQIG8Zoj17QDQc4nhLnSBUTaFXv8yqC6M8FVDHkP2teuj6Q__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 83dd89064121b7b586c8f89c10ec8608 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/21840/archive/files/3f639206c18dac0b4402da3777f35d7a.jpg?Expires=1774483200&Signature=CjEKOFUUfunjcKSkEsioq1SLaj68J1OoikYtOIWc0iAEQ5U-Y%7E7u0LSTmIquzsHQbEgjkWko-NkLXIyTmpMlur5efnyIFukF6vlnwcYw4XFHyYClbcn6PPypv4Rr3YcmPesiHbevtIPMGaedY4Xskvx8h0coLqf4gJ5ZLGvyoXGSZJgTFFFz6NFwnkFgxZL2QON2mf6BEIIe5i2Hs3mVJGVSApu5f7cs8YWsW7GYLStYU1-UlL9soK%7EUVIgY7j1O4v65hDdDg-tc30JWZGcaxzNfPkozQdoD2aZBo%7EW7WyHt8sBT%7Ej7XRn64YUxyd%7EIi7%7EuxoDla3EjstV1OaMgJqg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 64f227a4fc49cb765c09272b4ac6b253 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Private Collections Subject The topic of the resource Items related to assistive or adaptive technology and access more broadly conceived Description An account of the resource Items related to assistive or adaptive technology and access more broadly conceived, located in the homes and collections of private citizens. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The majority of photographs were taken by Beth A. Robertson with the permission of the individuals depicted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Carleton University's Disability Research Group Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource RBC Accessible ATM, 2016 Subject The topic of the resource Assistive or adaptive technology, accessible banking, barrier-free and inclusive design Description An account of the resource This is an image of the contemporary accessible Automated Teller Machine, located at the Royal Bank branch at 99 Bank, near the corner of Queen Street in Ottawa, ON. The first image is taken from the ramp and railing moving up to the machine, ensuring the ATM is accessible to all customers. The second image is taken from a position directly facing the machine where the iconic accessibility signs are prominently displayed above the machine. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Photograph by Beth A. Robertson, at the Royal Bank of Canada, 99 Bank Street, Ottawa ON Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived National Cash Register Corporation Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Carleton University's Disability Research Group Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 3 June 2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Photograph by Beth A. Robertson. Machine owned and operated by the Royal Bank of Canada. Use with permission. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Ottawa ON https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/21840/archive/files/8853b4c74d8c272fd99c2e59547bdf03.JPEG?Expires=1774483200&Signature=WX6V2dLcZ2FM2uz2ZaFQJ5hHkpxWVZc02QJDMx7JQt58xf7Y6KLE16wQhmHLiI7qN8J8MPCW-iYS8lLMvOaDRME7ztZ6eJbspJ-pm-cDVrR76QJDhzBCwp3vPA9QXZMI%7EbBXpwrMzDGVgeen3NRwO-2IUWhwzND2LOW51ct8b2RvBiL7AxlTAQU8f4Isyri3vQvieacwKeN1NB9jBfnWiXNO3j4tT%7ETlZiAEPFta0HOncc2UURzNsEKgyEjCQyYL3PZVi23gpjcH0K8mRjMyvZVNcl0NGbQxbu3zO5tCwmSnbSpsIkGYm5eCo75Hbo4sfgbXjmtTZPtrNkzSzN98RA__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 96c44cb7e08b2262d0e9b70b4b5e4b4f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Private Collections Subject The topic of the resource Items related to assistive or adaptive technology and access more broadly conceived Description An account of the resource Items related to assistive or adaptive technology and access more broadly conceived, located in the homes and collections of private citizens. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The majority of photographs were taken by Beth A. Robertson with the permission of the individuals depicted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Carleton University's Disability Research Group Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Image of user with guide dog at RBC's Talking ATM, c.1997 Subject The topic of the resource assistive and adaptive technology, accessible banking, disability history Description An account of the resource This is an image of a user wearing ear phones with his guide dog, depositing money at the Royal Bank's first talking ATM at the launch of the machine in October 1997. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Royal Bank of Canada Press Photo, c.1997 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Royal Bank of Canada Archives Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Carleton University's Disability Research Group Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1997 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Royal Bank of Canada Press Photo. Use with permission. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Ottawa, ON c.1997 Royal Bank of Canada Talking ATM User testing at the launch of the ATM https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/21840/archive/files/2f66848206cbe06dbe21d11296886f16.mp3?Expires=1774483200&Signature=Za%7ET8scSF901PtvZp-cr98iGgTp6AKS9lkzayHOGWeNJZSYiO0YOChKPsWxVMaJ3QKbhT%7EtB1kNxFcdJ6118gZOqPQWy1hNnB1DZ2x2F47LUqtsBQ3JQjnoK75UoMDY-1bMV1DC3g6E7nChtwLsoalXOXJs4sES5U%7Ebk%7EpBG1BwqYJBu3LEluqdvOOINCmKyY-HomuDxjsBZbuaCO8xTvqaK-kBrRZsuBwMpkZmxY%7Eg-F1kvk1Hzj5vFsty82fyJutT6PRcahnrrytBCuj%7EnEfEqQ6pcY4kwioV63xcusRydTB7GTRqaMnB56W8fIrKRC1H5sik8fuaqAGiUBJpE6Q__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 569caeb4da52a1545f4322b7267d4991 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Private Collections Subject The topic of the resource Items related to assistive or adaptive technology and access more broadly conceived Description An account of the resource Items related to assistive or adaptive technology and access more broadly conceived, located in the homes and collections of private citizens. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The majority of photographs were taken by Beth A. Robertson with the permission of the individuals depicted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Carleton University's Disability Research Group Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Beth A. Robertson Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Chris Stark and Marie Laporte Stark Location The location of the interview Kanata-Ottawa, ON Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:00:04 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Interviewer: Beth Robertson Interviewee Chris Stark and Marie Laporte Stark Beth Robertson: It’s April 26 2016 - my name is Beth Robertson. I'm from Carleton University's Disability Research Group. I'm here with Chris and Marie Stark at their residence in Kanata, Stittsville. I'm going to begin with a standard question: are you a person with disabilities? Chris Stark: Yeah I'm a person who's blind and I do see light and colors; I saw a lot better in my younger age, gradually down to the point where I don't even see your features now. Marie... Marie Stark: Well, pretty well the same I've been blind since birth. I went to the School for the Blind in Montreal. I have gone to university in Ottawa and now I've had pretty well the same amount of sight all my life which is, I think they used to say half of 1%, so I have light perception, and I see some colors and I see shapes from very close up. Chris: I think that the point is that we both use what we have and one of the funny things is she can sometimes read small print that I can't even see… Marie: …. but only for a few seconds because I can't focus I’ve got nystagmus - which is when your eye moves all the time - so if we want to know what the piece of mail is sometimes I'll try to read, you know, the logo or something and see for a few seconds and that's about it. Chris: And now we just normally scan it with a talking computer and find out what it is, whereas years ago you had to get somebody to read it. Beth: Can you please tell me about yourself? Chris: Women first [laughs] but I'll speak I guess just to be obnoxious. I went to the Halifax School for the Blind. When I went to the school, I got a good classical type of an education except that the focus was on using my residual vision. I use things like moon print, writing guide, all those kinds of things, but never learned Braille. And I went to a public high school for grade 12. And then after that I went to St. Mary's University in Halifax and I took two degrees but I used readers and used tape recorders. But in my day you had to pay for your own education so I had some mentors, I guess is that the word today, who helped me and one of them got me jobs so I worked my way through university going to school during the day, and sleep from 4 to 12 and worked the night shift at the residents office in the residence manager's office. I worked my way through University. Then I think my first job was with CNIB and eventually became the provincial director for New Brunswick and then went from that to the Government of Canada and worked with Transport Canada in energy management. How I was ever qualified for that I'm not sure, but it gave me, I think some advantage because I had good communication skills and what they wanted was to communicate what the engineers were doing. But I had a chance to travel Canada all the way up above the Arctic Circle at a time when blind people weren't doing that kind of thing. I went all on my own. And one of the things I remember is when I went to Resolute Bay the guy told me “well tonight you're going to have a real treat - you're going to sleep in the bed that Queen Elizabeth and her husband slept enjoying their honeymoon.” And I was all by myself so I couldn't figure out why that mattered at all.. but anyway.. That and then I went from there to the Canadian Transportation Agency and worked on accessible transportation, putting in place rules, regulations and things. So that, for example, airlines when they accept your wheelchair they have to give it back to you in the condition it was given to them in, and that if they broke it, they had to fix it, space for service animals, accepting people's self-determination of their needs and help to and from aircraft ,all those kind of good things. And in 2009 I kind of got quite sick, went through a liver transplant, and then retired and now I am enjoying retirement so that's the end of my tombstone. Marie… Marie: I went to the School for the Blind in Montreal, so I was born in Saint-Hyacinthe, Quebec. I am Francophone. I went to the University of Ottawa where I majored in psychology, and was taking my studies in French. I learned English at my first job, which was with CNIB / Canadian National Institute for the Blind as a rehabilitation teacher or counsellor. I learned Braille mainly, and when we got married we moved to New Brunswick and my two children were born in New Brunswick - a boy and a girl - and we now have three grandchildren. I worked for different jobs with the federal government from 1987 to when I retired in 2012, including Canada Mortgage and Housing, Citizenship and Immigration Canada, and Human Resources Development. And I spent 10 years or so at the Public Service Commission and I was at the end a senior advisor in policy… Chris: .. because of her employment with Immigration Canada we managed to go on our own to Israel, which was one of the famous trips. We liked to in those days travel by ourselves. In government I used to say I was the highest-paid “illiterate” because as I grew older I could not read and write in print at all. I professionally was involved in the development of technology such as: lifts to help people who are using wheelchairs to enter aircraft when there weren't boarding bridges, on board island wheelchairs. All that kind of stuff, but it wasn't from a technical perspective, it was from users’ need as a regulator. But in our advocacy, I would say that we've been involved in many things like the ATM - the automated teller machine - that came about as a result of the complaint before the Canadian Human Rights Commission that started in 1991 and took four years before the Royal Bank realized that it was better to do it than to suffer the moral and indignity of public exposure. Because they knew they were going to lose, but also because the management that took the file over realized it was the right thing to do. But in the agreement some of the things that we put in it were the important things. We never in all our advocacy thought that we should tell people how to solve the problem: we felt that it was important to set the parameters, so in that case, have focus groups like they did for any other products they develop, do R&D, do user testing… Marie: .. to develop standards… Chris: ..That's why it took a while to get it done, but I can remember them taking us down to their test labs in Toronto on Front Street and going up and testing this equipment with a whole bunch of other blind people. I think that was the first time, at least in my memory, that a product for the blind was tested using, not my opinion or Marie's opinion, or one or two blind people's opinion, but a cross-section of abilities and a cross-section of needs. So that was one of the important aspects of that whole exercise that people who are blind - their diversity had to be incorporated in what the Royal Bank developed. And not only blind people. They took the same approach for people who use wheelchairs and most of that technology has stood the test of time. They were the first but it's gone throughout Canada, most Canadian charter banks, it's across the United States. The technology has been updated, the design. Now, for example, in the first one they used human voices and they hired a company to do that. Now it's all automated: we don't need human voices to read to us we need to get the messages. That's one of the big changes that that have happened. But now I can walk up to a machine, plug in an earphone in and use it at any Chartered Bank in Canada. And that's happened in probably the last 20 years. And often you'll get somebody saying, ‘do you know sir the machine isn't working?’ because I've hit three and blanked the screen. I don't need this screen, and I don't want anybody looking over my back. They don't even realize that I'm using it in a different way. The important aspects of that settlement were that design component be integrated into existing machines rather than a “special machine for the blind,” which is something we fight against almost constantly. We want integration and mainstream solutions whenever possible. And some of the guidelines are: the simpler solution, the lower the cost the solution, the more mainstream it is, the more likely we are to use it. So now today you see bills with tactile markings on the back of them that tell you whether it's a $5, $10 or $20. And there's three little, not braille, but cells on the back of that that tells me it is a $20. So now, not only can we use the bank's machine, but we know what money we're getting out of the bank machine. However, in the United States when we travel down there, we have the problem that in the United States their bills do not have tactile markings and a one looks like a fifty. Now we have a thing on our smartphone called “Darwin wallet”. We just aim it at the bill and it takes a picture and it says “twenty, US front.” Those are all allied technologies to that. But, you know, we've had to go back to the banks over things like statements we can read, over things like websites. You know, you’d think after one go around they'd learn, but it's almost as if there is a natural reluctance to do these things because either it's for the blind or ‘how many blind people are there’ - and I used to answer that one by saying, “I don't care how many blind people in the world are. I need my needs nominated” and if there's only me that's fine long as it doesn't bankrupt you that's fine so it was another principle. But always as participants and we've always emphasized the importance of user testing: don't ask me what the blind need, ask a lot of blind people. Too often things have been developed that are very expensive and have a very limited life because they are so limited in use and so costly to produce. When the average statistics of people who are blind: most blind people are unemployed, most blind people are living below the poverty line, most blind people have had substandard education, and they're not going to be able to afford $8,000 for a device (like a refreshable Braille keyboard or something else). Marie: One of the areas that really needs improvement is the area of on-screen programming for television and the like, because right now we can't use PVR's and all these gadgets, the set-top boxes and on-screen programming is not made to work with them yet. We've pushed that since the beginning of 2000… but it takes so long to get things done because of the way our system is structured. You fall further behind with technology that would be very useful. Chris: But I think with the Apple and the Galaxy and similar things you're seeing them hit the marketplace accessible. Marie: Yeah, and that's the way you have to go. Chris: And in our view and all the things we've advocated for it has to benefit us, but has to benefit other people too. Everybody thinks that people who are blind really want to see, so we've had sonar and we've had... now you've got cameras that can interpret what's around you, and recognize faces. Marie: We'd be robots if we’d use everything… Chris: We’d be like the tin man, but some people may, but the majority of people who are blind just want to get the information they need. Marie: Three years ago, [the idea] that I would use mobile very much, I would have said, ‘ah, no way’. And now it follows me everywhere. Even finally the bank has made their app accessible, more accessible. Before we weren't able to use it at all, but the last upgrade, it's much better. Now I can do some of the banking on the phone. But it took two years, we've been telling them, if not more. And I go to get the next upgrade, I get the notice on the phone there was an upgrade, and it still wasn't accessible. Chris: We can't use the on-screen programming, we can't use... now they have added in recent years a thing called this ‘descriptive video’ where they describe the movies and that we've pushed for, and some programs like Coronation Street, the Murdoch Mysteries, those have all come about because of advocacy. If you can see it and we've got the right to know it. The technology we use today is not the technology we used when we left school (when I used to romp around the federal government saying ‘I'm the highest-paid illiterate in the world’), but now I get my literacy another way. We hope that in the future things will become more mainstream as they come on the market. We don't understand why new things are not made accessible to begin with and if they're not, the retrofit becomes very much more expensive. Marie: There's one thing why we're so surprised about the apps with the Royal Bank, for example, how long it took. Because we have been working with them, they knew that there was new services they were supposed to be made accessible from the start. Chris: They agreed to that in a legal agreement. If we had accepted society's role of our existence in life, we'd be living on a pension or ODSP or… and not having a quality of life that was satisfying for us. We had that first make it for ourselves, earn a living, we wanted to have a family, all the normal things.. Marie: I remember even when going to university, I remember when I wanted to learn typing and stop learning the piano, because you had to choose what I was going to and learn but I'd like to go to university. My goodness, they were all appalled. When I got to University of Ottawa there was only me and another girl that were blind. There were a few men but we're only two blind ladies, and there was no student with the disability centers. You had to make your own way, you had to get your teacher to give you our own tests. I remember writing essays myself on a clunky typewriter, you know, and making mistakes. And then I’d get a friend to read the page and she say, ‘oh, you have a typo blah blah blah’ then have to start the page all over again, because you didn't have the autocorrect. So you had to make your own way in the early 1970s. You didn't have the support that is available nowadays. Chris: And I think that experience growing up at least for both of us is why we hit many of the issues we did in the way we did. That we weren't willing to accept the fact that we couldn't get access to money when we wanted to. We couldn’t, so we went after the Royal and it took years. Marie: Actually, this started just wanting to have access to communications. The complaint to the Royal Bank was mainly about having access to our bank statements and their publications. We had learned that that you could pay your mortgage faster every two weeks and we didn't know about it. And then ‘oh there's our flyer on that..” Chris: Well we actually Marie is quite right the ATM was a very small part of that settlement … and it became the thing that everybody has taken notice of. But for us, the more important things were knowing about the products and services and knowing what was coming out of your bank account. You've got to take charge your life. You've got to be willing to take risks. You've got to be willing to know when to accept help and when not to accept help and those are difficult things to learn… Marie: And they change as you get older too. Some things that we'd accept help for now, we wouldn’t have earlier in our lives I suppose… Chris: We want to do as much as we can for ourselves, but we got to know when it's not safe to do it or when we can't do it. Beth: Can you tell me about the first time you ever used a technological aid or an assistive technology? Marie: I suppose I use Brailler. [Chris: Perkins Brailer..] No, my God, we weren't allowed to use a Perkins until I was - I don't know if it was in high school or whatever, but quite further. We used the Slate and Stylus, that's how we learned Braille when I went to the school in grade one at five years old. And we were taught Braille right away. I suppose that's the first piece of, we’d think you'd call it technology in those days. [Chris: in those days…] you had to write each little dot one after the other with the slate and stylus. You’d learn to write the wrong way around, if you know what I mean. So you're going to write from right to left, and then you turn that thing over and the page over and you read from left to right. So that's a very difficult concept for young children. And also when you try to teach Braille to adults. And that's why, now, they teach a lot with the Braille writers, you know braillers or Perkins Braillers, Braille writers are even given to young kids at school when they don't seem to be learning. Unfortunately those are little slates are very useful in some instances. If you have a little card, you just want to take somebody's name, you know. Sometimes it's just as fast as getting your mobile out. So absolutely, my first experience with technology and then probably just regular tape recorders as I went to university. Then you get into computers and you know braillers. As I said the Perkins Brailler we learned as well when I was… Chris: ..I don't think we started using computers until the late eighties, early nineties.. with disks… Marie: And the talking book machines at that time - Chris was starting to talk about this earlier, you know, they were a lot bigger and you had the four tracks on them and… Chris: ..they were all specialty items - special. Now these are just mp3 files anybody can download.. Marie: ..You download them from audible.com or from the library or whatever… Chris: Now for me I think my first technology would be large print. And as my sight got worse, the print got bigger. That's how they tried to culminate it in school: first the small print then up to maybe eighteen, thirty six point. By then it became unmanageable, so then you had to rely on memory. Marie: ..And why they didn’t teach you braille, that was hard to believe.. Chris: Well because of the problem with print, by grade 4, they put me in a slow learners class. But by grade 7 I developed ways of getting around it and coping and with the help of a teacher. She refused to retire until a bunch of her students were taken out of the auxiliary class and put in the regular school. I suppose my second technology would be a magnifying glass - technologies that really didn't suit and meet my needs. I would say that the most effective technology for me were readers - readers or people who would read stuff to me, so they were human technology. Because in those days - and I'm sure Maria would share - even as late as now, getting textbooks is a real hassle for students. We could get textbooks about the time that the classes were finished, and the libraries didn't have them, the CNIB didn't have them. I remember in Halifax, the late 60s, we said, “look, this isn't hard you know.” So we got some federal government money and we went to the professors of students who were going to their classes next term in June. So we’d say, “what books are you going to use next year”? They knew, and so we went out and we brailled a bunch of them. Marie: Oh, there would be copyright … Chris: Oh, yeah, I’m sure there were, but we didn’t care.. And then people in the traditional libraries were horrified. Marie: I remember my one of my first jobs at Canada Mortgage, one of the vice presidents, when we asked for a reader for me as an accommodation, she said “so I don't want to look like I’m hiring two people when I'm hiring one.” And then, you know, I had to start talking about the Human Rights Commission, and we didn't have to go that far, but then still, at first the reaction was that. Chris: Yeah, so the way you get around that is they were our contractors [Marie: the same as an attendant for a person who’s a wheelchair.] Chris: They were really almost the forerunners of attendants, because in the 70s / 80s, there weren't that many people who use wheelchairs working. Whether the horse came before the cart or the carts before the horse, the concept is the same - as an interpreter, as a reader, as an attendant. Oh and you're right, you get good, bad or indifferent. I used to always go to the radio stations and get my own. I used to get radio announcers who enjoyed coming out in the evening and reading The Merchant of Venice - you know some guy who in the morning he was spinning the top 40 on the breakfast show and would come and read to me the Merchant of Venice. You know, but they have the voice training to do it, and I remembered that stuff better because of the good reader. Marie: So but at work we had mainly university students, with posters at universities and hired students. Chris: Hired students, mainly for their ability to use the technology that was inaccessible to us, and read things to us like files, and print. [Marie: Because there was a lot more print in those days. When we first started to work there wasn't the use of net, computer networks, and getting things turned around in the same day. You had a month to send something back most of the time, when today you have two days…] Chris: Sending my reader down to the library to research something. Nowadays I just pick up, say “Google what is the regulation on carriage of monkeys on aircraft.” Now Google, tell me? Now Google is a smart critter. Now I'm part of a thing called the ‘broadcasting accessibility fund’. I’m a board member of it. And what it is, it's monies the CRTC gave the disability community as a result of Bell mergers and all that kind of stuff, to fund research and development into technologies for people with disabilities in the broadcasting area. That's now something I do and we are having projects… Marie: … They have a certain amount of money that… every year they sponsor or fund projects to improve broadcasting services. Like we were saying, we still can’t read the units on screen programming and several other features. Hopefully that will help towards that, but that's one way to influence it by participating on boards or committees. Although, we've gone to so many meetings, that we hate meetings. We don't participate on as many groups as a lot of blind people do because we always like to act more than just talk, so… Chris: And it's doing some good things - we've influenced a lot of technology. Marie: For us, its also services… so services have as part of them technology. Chris: I think we had some basic guidelines. Does it affect our quality of life? Will it help us? And if we had a problem, how can we solve it? That's always a question. Marie: Like getting this gadget that reads the medication - that's a big issue right now as you get older to be able to deal with medications. Know if there's an issue, a health issue to get the information that you need in order to know what you should do. That was another area that… Chris: It’s another human rights complaint in BC because the drugstores out there wouldn't do it, and Shoppers Drug Mart is among them, and I took that and I went here and it took six years but I now have it. But Shoppers won't promote it to blind people, they won't put it up on their website. And yet they got a whole charitable image side to them: fundraising in terms of their foundation, and good charitable works. And so, one of the things you'll find with many people who are blind - more so from our generation perhaps than the current generation - is a dislike of charities. We'd rather you do it because it makes good business sense, because it's the right thing to do, because it's your duty to accommodate, because we're a citizen, we're customers.. [Marie: cause we have money to spend...] Case in point is our son and our grand-daughter - they both have some visual problems, but they don't like white canes. So what does he do? He uses a black cane. What does she do? She uses a green cane. She can use the cane, but they don't want the stigma of the white cane you see. So how they're using technology to deal with their issues is different than how we did. Marie: Well I used use nothing and I could barely see because I didn't want the stigma either. And finally I fell in a construction hole, and that's when I decided to get a guide dog [laughs]. Chris: If I want to book tomorrow, that's released tomorrow, and I want to pay, I can get it through audible.com. Whereas years ago I had to wait until the charitable library decided to record it, after deciding whether or not it was [Marie: ‘suitable’] … suitable, appropriate. And boy, if you want to read about a fight, it was the libraries and the issue of pornography and all that kind of stuff that is in your Public Library, which they considered as ungodly. Well, like thirty years ago Fifty Shades of Grey wouldn't have even been considered as a talking book. Now I haven't read it because it doesn't interest me, but that doesn't mean I don't have a right to read it. You understand what I mean? Marie: It doesn't mean that somebody shouldn't read it for us, or now that we can download it as a text file anyways, so you can read it from Bookshare, for example, it's on there if you want to read it. Chris: See, I think one of the things technology is done for us: it's reduced the ability of others to censor knowledge. And that's a big thing that you don't really realize until you look at well, where do we get our information from? Whether it was at the schools - like Marie went to a school run by nuns. They censored the kind of materials she received during her education. Or when you went out to university, even that was liberating because all of a sudden we could access the forbidden fruit of knowledge that was denied us in our education. Marie: Canada Revenue Agency's another area where we worked with them for several years… Chris: I don't know whether you'd consider it technology, but tax software, to be able to fill in your own income tax, is something we've just been able to get. But it started way back in the 60s and 70s. Their attitude then was, ‘well we'll send a few tax people out to the CNIB one night in March and they'll do your taxes for you..’ and so they did in the early 70s for a while. Then they started saying ‘this is getting too big’ - there's a lot of other people that want that. So then it went to tax clinics, and then of course they became means-tested.. Marie: So if you made too much money, you couldn’t access it. Chris: So then for us we said, ‘well okay, we want to do it for ourselves.’ The next thing to haunt Revenue Canada was we wanted to read all the tax documents, and the tax forms, and the tax sheets and the schedule. A lot of these technological innovations have come as a result of advocacy and the one thing … Marie: ..Then you get your big bunch of books and braille every year before your tax returns, but we're proud of doing it, you know like you were able to submit it on a diskette eventually. But again when the service became online, now we want to be able to do it that way as well. Chris: So now we can go into my tax or my account on the tax and see what it is. You know ours was submitted last week, and they say “received / in process of being assessed.” How we use technology too now. For example, because of the fear for years that we didn't know what was going on in her bank accounts, which was the main thing that provoked the original complaint which ended up with the ATMs, among many other things. We want to know everything that goes through our bank account. So now the Royal has a thing called alerts, so I go in there, we set it up. So every time I buy something at a store we get an email: large purchase $999..” Marie: Anybody can get that. Chris: So it's a mainstream thing now but it means nothing happens in our bank accounts that we don't know about. When everything happened then we didn't know about it - you know we'd have to remember what our balances should be, how many cheques we wrote, doing mental math and all that crap. And now we don't. So that's how technology has helped and has evolved. But it's also been, ‘you can't be rigid’ you can't say ‘it's got to be done this way.’ Marie: … Because things change. Things we said we wanted 10 years ago may not be the way we want them today.. Chris: When we were bringing up our kids, we had no books to read them bedtime stories, Marie, it was another one of our projects. She got mad about that, she got some money, and we Brailled a bunch of children's books for mothers who were blind. Nowadays you can get books with print and Braille together. And so you can sit with a sighted child and read them “Little Red Riding Hood”… And so now you it doesn't matter whether the child is blind, or the mother is blind, they can participate together, and they're called twin vision books. But that's all in the last 30 years. It doesn't matter where you go it's a matter of finding the solution and the technology is the solution for many, many things - but not everything. Marie: To me another concept that's very important is choice: you need a range of options. For example, a lot of people like the iPhones, but maybe I prefer an Android phone. Years ago we didn't have any choice, and then you have just one choice. Now it's really good when you have more than one option. Shouldn't expect that because you develop one product it's going to fit everybody that it's going to know work for everybody. Where we all have different abilities even when you have a certain disability. Beth: Do you think there is a connection between technological aids, accessibility and human rights, and, if so, in what way? Chris: I think 90% of the technology we have today would not have occurred if there weren't human rights cases or the threats of human rights cases, or something as simple as public shame. Like, the broom makers at the CNIB broom factory in Toronto going on strike for higher wages. I think that the point of that is no bank wants to be convicted of a human rights discrimination. When the Commission decides it's had enough, that's when they'll settle, usually at the eleventh hour. In the United States, it's much more clear because it's litigation. The United States, they regularly sue different companies, that's how the Comcast accessible programs… Marie: And organisations do it too. Like organizations here are not allowed to do human rights complaints and it’s got to be individuals. And most individuals don't have the knowledge, the stamina to deal with complaints. They just grumble and they won't do anything about it. And in the states, with organizations like the National Federation of the Blind or whatever, they deal with the lawyers. And for us, you take a complaint you're faced with, you know, ten lawyers on the other side and you're just yourself. So the system here is not quite, you know, it’s not very user friendly, and there is a push again, like there was fifteen years ago. And I know because I was working a lot on the committees that were working to get the Canadians with Disabilities Act in place. And now they're starting to push on that again with the new government, so hopefully it will go through this time. Because, unfortunately, the human rights system that we have is complaints-based and very individualistic. And a lot of the complaints resolutions, we will never hear about because there's confidentiality aspects when they're resolved at the mediation level. They don't go to tribunal. Chris: And 90-95% of results are resolved there. Very rarely do they go to tribunal where you can get access to the records, you see. It's all done under the table on the “Q-T.” There are not just the Canadian Human Rights Commission, there is the Canadian Transportation Agency, there is a Canadian Radio-Television and Telecommunications Commission. And all of these different tribunals have human rights components in their legislation, but they view their role as to be an impartial third party between the service provider and the person with a disability. And what that means is the imbalance of power between the legal and wealth of a corporation against an individual. Marie: That's where the court challenges program helped a lot in the past. The previous government cancelled, but it's supposed to be coming back. And that was big help. That's why Donna Jodhan was able to bring the public service website issues for resolution and the Human Rights, because she had the help of lawyers under the court challenges program. She wouldn't have been able to pay for that. Chris: Another example is that Via Rail were going to buy new railway cars and then weren’t going to make them all accessible for wheelchairs. The court challenges program paid David Baker and company through the Canadian Council of Disabilities to take Via Rail to court. There you have government money fighting government money and VIA in the end lost as you knew they would. Because you can't buy new equipment and say it's for everybody but people who use wheelchairs - it's absurd. So the human rights aspect of it is why many blind people - and I think something that needs to be studied - is I think there's a PTSD-type of an effect of a human rights case, particularly if you lose it. Because what these tribunals do is they try to dehumanize the issue and make it as if it's “well is Cornflakes a brand name of Kellogg's or is it a generic brand?” It's not the same kind of issue. It's a human issue. It's an issue that affects people's lives and whether or not these tribunals are the best way to deal with it. When I worked for CTA years ago my daughter told other people in class, ‘he's the chief complainer!’ If you've read my book, that's what she called it. Who wants to be complaining all their lives? You know, what does that do to your own concept of yourself? That's why the Ontarians with Disabilities Act had great expectations. It has yet to live up to its expectations. It is far from perfect, but that's the hope of the Canadians with Disabilities Act. But it won't help my generation. It will help people in the future because what happens is you get an act, then you have to make regulations and then the various competing parties have to have their say and you pick the lowest common denominator and that's what's implemented in a regulation. Oh, but if it's not fair enough, you can make a complaint. Well then if you make a complaint then you get into all this other, what I call a minuet or a cotillion dance of King Louis’s the 14th ballroom in the court, where you go through pleading, and written exchanges of information. Blind people particularly are at a complete disadvantage in that kind of structure. You put me in a room with six of these lawyers and I can talk them under the table within half an hour, you know, but written? I'm at a disadvantage. That's part of the whole thing. I mean, I can think, you talk about technologies. Bell Canada 1992 wanted to charge blind people directory assistance charges, but wouldn't provide us a phone book that we could read! A lady in Montreal and us, we went to the CRTC and they were forced to give us free directory assistance which lasts to this day. And it's being applied to cell phones now, and there isn't the need today that there was 20 years ago for it because I can say, “Google what's the phone number for Gabriel's pizza” and they'll get it for me. It's a problem of inclusion. And what the Human Rights Commission does is it prevents them - meaning service providers - from saying no and closing the door. Because they can slam the door in my face, but they can't slam the door in the face of the Human Rights Commission, and that's the difference. It's that they make them take you serious, and you don't always win: I'd say we've lost probably 40-60% of the cases we took to the Commissions over the years. We've lost more than we won. Blindness is first and foremost information deprivation. We get information from our other senses, but we miss the visual. The human rights has played a part in making it more equal for us, but I would not say that - and it's my criticism of the human rights - is that they are not on our side, even though the legislation says they're supposed to be on our side. Marie: They're supposed to be on the public centre, the public interest… Chris: And so if they're in the public interest, all I should have to do is say: ‘Bell Canada won't give me a bill in the format I can read.” Well sir, what format did you need? ‘Plain text electronic.’ Okay, the Commission will see what we can do about that. Instead of that you got to go back and forth, through pleadings back and forth, months and months… You understand what I mean? It's a bureaucracy gone wild. Beth: How do you think changing attitudes both within and outside Canada have shaped the development of technological aids or adaptive technology? Chris: A short answer is that everybody is looking for somebody else to do it first. International has had some good and bad effects. And Canadians had some good and bad effects on international. In transportation, we were one of the first to adopt transportation regulations. And as CCD says in the 90s, we were the leader - world leader - in accessible transportation. But because of the last 10 to 12 years, we are no longer the world's leader. We’re probably second world right now. Marie: Unfortunately the past government, Conservative government didn't do much to help disabled people. They were saying they were by giving money for HRSDC programs and that sort of thing, but when it came to the day to day activities and technology and all that… Chris: So your question in part is standards. Are world standards or Canadian standards helpful? Sure, provided they don't delay implementation. The Marrakesh Treaty on copyright act is currently … the Liberals have introduced it in Parliament. And that'll make a big difference in the rights of students to get access to textbooks. Well Jeff even has a case of it where a publisher said that our books are for students, not for parents who are blind. Therefore, you can’t translate it into alternative formats for your parents or the blind, even though the students parents could read when they brought it home. That kind of thing plus the difficulty of getting textbooks at university will be dealt with by the Marrakesh treaty which Canada is now introduced. It’s had first reading in the House of Commons and since it cost the federal government nothing I can see it'll go through fairly quickly I think. Marie: As Chris was saying, the thing about standards, and the organization's waiting, you know, long before they put things in place for the standards to be in place. You see that a lot under the AODA right now, Ontarians with Disabilities Act. They all use that while the standards haven't been approved, and standards are a good idea. But you have to make sure they don't take years to be developed. When we had the banking machine issue, I was a member of the CSA - Canadian Standards Association - committee on barrier-free design for banking machines. It took a couple of years of meetings after our complaint was settled to develop the standards before they would start making and putting more banking machines in place. Chris: And then you know the banks are most international. So what happens in the United States, we don't want one system in Canada and another in the United States… Marie: It makes sense… Chris: There's a need for harmonization, but too often that harmonization is used as an excuse. Like, the Canadian market is too small. Yes, but I would say that international standards could help us more because Britain and Europe have standards which haven't being applied in Canada - international standards under ICAO in transportation which I know... Beth: My last question is what do you think have been important factors in shaping the evolution of technological aids in Canada and elsewhere? Marie: I think that the aging of the population is one of the driving forces. In the United States it was the veterans coming back from the war in Vietnam, and they came back and they wanted to work the same as other young fellows, and so that part had a big… Chris: That's where the disability movement really took off - they weren't going to put up with the kind of crap we put up with when they came back from the Vietnam War. There were so many injured American veterans and it's a well-known fact that they drove the technology towards the Americans with Disabilities Act, and onwards. And now that's being applied. For example, any airline that wants to land in the United States has got to obey that technology. Any product you want to sell in the United States is subject to challenge if people with disabilities can’t use it. When I graduated from school it was a rarity that anybody finished university, I think at least in Halifax there maybe were three or four in the last ten years before I graduated from school. And I know when I finished University a whole bunch of people like from CNIB and everywhere else came down. You'd think I had walked on water or something! I think the fact that more and more people who are blind are getting educated, and are getting access to employment and good jobs - by far not enough. And are starting to use reasoned arguments… changes in the way we look at blindness coupled with the education, coupled with the fact that technology has made it possible for us to speak our mind… Marie: To be aware of more too. We want to know things the same as other people. Chris: The same thing for technology - we started out with readers and readers on slates, and now I mean, I can send you an email as I did last night: I do it my way, you get it your way and we communicate, and it's so much easier. So communicating is easier. The fact that I can send the Prime Minister a snarky note if I want to is far easier now than it was in the 60s and 70s. Plus people can exchange ideas, and I can see what another blind person is doing. I would say the area that really is hard right now for blind people particularly is getting employment. You can say about special measures and all that stuff all you want, but there what works because people are scared I think people are scared of blindness - this is just my opinion. We used to do a thing called ‘windmills.’ We'd say you've got to have four disabilities, and you got to choose one of them: blindness, deafness, in a wheelchair, or cognitively disabled. Now you've got hands up: who wants to be in a wheelchair? Who wants to be whatever? Inevitably, people did not want to be blind - it was the lowest on that scale when you've got to choose which disability you had, most people did not want to choose blindness. And it was predictable, and it's still the same today. And I think we're held back a bit by the fact that it's difficult for people to see blindness. They see a person in a wheelchair sitting at the bottom of a pair of stairs and they understand the need for a ramp. They see a person who's blind standing in front of a printed sign - they don’t get the same… Marie: ...looking for the washroom…which happened at the human rights commission last week! Chris: We were there for something unrelated to us, but we were there, and we were looking for the washroom sign so there’s no Braille washroom signs in a government building. Marie: Just the regular washroom signs - but they had them but they were not right next to the washroom itself. Chris: They were next to the elevator - may be I go in the elevator...is that where I go? You know, so really I think for us technology builds on itself. The more we can do the more we’ll be able to do. And the more mainstream…. that's another factor, it's far easier.. Marie: Like talking GPS - they have them in cars now so that's why they come on the phone, they're coming in the car now… I mean, we wanted them for years! [Chris: So maybe I'll drive you all home now in these driverless cars are on the road!] I mean you know there’s a bigger market place because of the aging of the population will certainly help. People who use their devices now, if they lose their sight as they age they still want to use … to be able to do what they could as much as possible. Chris: And the gradual an ever so gradual build up of legislation and rights and… Marie: … awareness as well. Like, with kids seeing a guide dogs not as much of a thing as it used to be. For example, seeing kids in their school that are blind working with a colleague who's blind. As you get more blind people around, it becomes more the norm. Chris: But there never will be huge numbers of blind people. If you look at the medical profession, their desire is to cure blindness, and much of the research into blindness is how to make you see. Unfortunately, for some of us, we got to live the way we are, so I think that's another factor: being realistic about your blindness and its an important factor… Marie: ... and the researcher finding solutions that are user-friendly. Not because, you know, sometimes you hear about new gadgets being developed. All right, well that sounds like a great idea, but you know will I use that? I don't think so. Chris: That's why projects like what you're doing are important because they are trying to convey to a broader audience what our evolution, if you will, in Canadian society has been. The view of blindness in the 1800's to the 20th century is different than the view of blindness today. I think the empowerment of people who are blind is also an issue now. Blind people are saying “I want this or I don't want that.” And it's the empowerment of being able to choose as we've said before. Our social development in terms of movements that is usually a bit behind other people, but the gap between society and blind people is narrower now than it was in the 60s. One of the important elements is to document our history. It's not a history – like, as you know and you've read it, I wrote a book about my experiences at the Halifax School for the Blind. I've got some comments back about that from people who said that ‘my mother told me about going there’ and ‘my it sounded like a gruesome place.’ And all of that has been lost. It's never been documented. The whole understanding of our history is not really readily accessible. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral interview with Chris Stark and Marie Laporte Stark, 26 April 2016, Kanata-Ottawa Subject The topic of the resource assistive technology, accessibility, disability rights activism Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Chris Stark and Marie Laporte Stark at their home in Kanata, Ontation on April 26 2016. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Interview by Beth A. Robertson, Carleton University's Disability Research Group Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Carleton University's Disability Research Group Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 26 April 2016 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Use with permission Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Kanata ON Oral History interview Chris and Marie Stark 26 April 2016 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/21840/archive/files/2dcdbbeb36b3e6eb8adcb8266bd9fc33.mp3?Expires=1774483200&Signature=TGn-zWxq-bEZhjOMFGnpKgPWDrteQ2uW4GeosxHpDjM4Xs%7EBl2CYltUkVAFYewE50bwR8tPrg7VYJn9HKf84Fhlw7EguIhc0p8l1l7mMn4hOwYt0BM%7EwzoW5KcyuYAcTKFhOCdymAbCUNPPsokWTzFvoMG3OyNLjcqzUaZqfyYdt%7EQtF9kYbQlnAhyIl5MeOJXMqzzTyDh7qo7aXIUrzgRlA8QxWfJdMSpTZqSXDSqOb8yTouxssrPK1kMA6HCTwV2LlmalzCw2zHQa3TFijh8XofHFNv28-q4g75eIKAkl1Jwx%7ExtfSwJCgnzbitGUO-GE3Ylpt4IUNPHOmvEDFrw__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 7937ee9f92bde88bd68e70049e2581cb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Private Collections Subject The topic of the resource Items related to assistive or adaptive technology and access more broadly conceived Description An account of the resource Items related to assistive or adaptive technology and access more broadly conceived, located in the homes and collections of private citizens. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The majority of photographs were taken by Beth A. Robertson with the permission of the individuals depicted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Carleton University's Disability Research Group Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Beth A. Robertson Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sharlyn "Charlie" Ayotte Location The location of the interview Ottawa, ON Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 49:32 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Interviewer Beth Robertson Interviewee: Sharlyn Ayotte Beth Robertson Today is April 13, 2016. I am here with Sharlyn Ayotte, otherwise known as ‘Charlie’ at her residence in Ottawa. My name is Beth Robertson. I'm with Carleton University's Disability Research Group. Beth: Today I'm going to ask Charlie about her past experiences with the uses of assistive technologies. And my first question is just asking you to tell me about yourself and how you first became interested in assistive technologies? Sharlyn: Okay - isn’t it hard to start though? It’s like, I'm mid 60's at this point in my life. I've been in Ottawa for over 30 years. I lost my eyesight - most of my eyesight - at age 27 and became interested in different technologies at that point in time. Certainly not involved with computer technology, but with things like talking book machines and things like that, in order to read. From there I had to plan another career. I was at the time, when I lost my sight, working in a research laboratory and my job was in R&D. I was responsible for taking the light measurements of light emitting diodes to check out to see what the batches were and which ones were good and which ones were bad, etc. I lost my sight while doing those light emission experiments using argon and neon lasers. When the company went into receivership, I went looking for another job and at that point in time realized that my eyesight had become so diminished that I needed to go and see a doctor. At that point, they let me know that I was legally blind at age 27 - and it was a huge shock. So I became interested in technology because of that. Then, as time went on, I went back to school, I became a computer programmer - PL/1 COBOL at the University of Manitoba in Winnipeg. That was great, came back and was a programmer for about a year when I discovered I really wasn't cut out to be in a room by myself working on programs and not having a lot of social interaction, because I knew myself. I was a social animal and liked to talk to people. So, at that point in time, I decided to find another job and I went into sales and marketing for a mini-computer company and sold used mini-computers, things like PDPs from Digital Equipment of Canada, and from there found another job. At that point, I was legally blind (as opposed to illegally blind - I'm not sure what legally and illegally would mean), but I didn't see very well at that point. And I ended up getting my perfect job over the telephone and never disclosed that I was a blind person at that point. So I got this job, I went to my first day in the office. I brought in a closed-circuit camera, a television, which magnifies print on a screen. The company president, which was in Toronto while I was here in Ottawa, had his executive assistant call me to say, ‘we have just learned that you have a disability…’ And I'm thinking ‘there goes this job’, and it didn't happen. They told me that if there was any technology I needed, they would get it for me and since I had my own that wasn't an issue. So my job was to go off and sell computers, which I did, and never did a demo. Because I just explained it to people, ‘it's like driving car. You've got a computer there, here's another one, it’s better,’ and I sold a lot of computers. Then that company didn't make it after a period of time - not because of me because my numbers, they were great - it went into receivership. And at that point in time, I wanted to start a business, and I found a partner who had some skills, financial skills, and I had the gift of, some people said, the gab, and I was able to get started here in the house where this interview is taking place. So this is the beginning of where T-Base [Communications] comes from, in this house, in the basement. I became interested in all kinds of technology after that… So I think I've answered the first question, probably a long way past that. Beth: You mentioned about some of your initial experiences with assistive technologies. Can you elaborate a little bit more about that, and then how that led to your involvement with the development and use of technological aids with T-Base [Communications]? Sharlyn: At the time when I decided I wanted to have a business, I needed a lot of different information. I wanted market information pertaining to security products. I wanted to be able to read some financing information. I wanted to have access to different kinds of programs that I could use, not as a piece of technology, but as programs that I could access it would help me start and grow a business. As a blind person, that wasn't available to me. So, what happened was that I would have to talk my friends into reading documents to me after work or during the workday or whatever. They weren't volunteers. They were people, (some of them were volunteers), but mostly, as we got busier it was people that we hired. Organizations were prepared to send volunteers to help me read through the documents, but I wasn't always interested in that. What I wanted to do was gain access to the information myself. I didn't use a computer at that point - that was back in 1980 - and I didn't use a computer. So, in 1992, after exploiting my husband who would read to me until midnight some nights and it wasn't really a good thing for us to be doing all the time, I got this fax from a friend who said, ‘by the way Charlie you need to read this.’ And the Government of Canada had passed Bill C-78 - a piece of Omnibus legislation that amended 6 pieces of legislation in the government. And it gave blind people the right to request and receive information in alternative formats: braille, large print, audio and e-text formats or on computer diskette. I took that and somebody read it to me and let me know what it was all about and I wanted to start testing that out because there was information I really did need. One of the pieces of information that I requested was on the government’s information highway initiative. They weren't going to give me the information I was looking for about the information highway and what that would do for all of us within a digital economy. So I made a request for that document. Let's just stop for a second – did I go past the end of that question? … Because I haven't even answered the question yet, because it takes a bit to get us there. I don't even get to the technology - I don't have any at that point - I've got a talking book machine. I was trying to move it so I could get the stuff he had or that the general public had. I could get the same stuff everybody else had access to that I didn't have, just so I could live a life, run a business and make a living. That's what that piece of Omnibus legislation meant to me and then now I could make a request, get the information I want, and I could play it back on my tape recorder or even the audio book machine that I had. And from there, it would be really great because what I learned after losing my sight was that I was an audio learner, where before I was a visual learner. Now I depended on sound in order to access information fairly. The first document I asked for was the Information Highway Report on internet and access to the digital world. I made the request. They refused to do it. I made the second request. They weren't really keen and tried to ignore me. I finally called the minister's office and told them that I really wanted this stuff and needed this stuff in order to compete in Canada's mainstream. Finally, they set up a meeting with me. I brought in in a paper base because I couldn't get what I needed and these are documents people had read to me: The Charter of Rights and Freedoms (1982), The Canadian Human Rights Act (1977), and the amendments to communications policy in the regulatory environment that we were operating in. I walked into a room and there was the caucus liaison, there was the minister's legal people, there was the director of communications for Industry Canada. There was little old me with a white cane and a pile of paper documents that I couldn't read independently. And I walked into that room and I convinced them that I should have the right to that information. It took ten months from the initial request to the time I actually received it. So on a program by program, service by service basis, there was no consistent or available alternative formats for Canadians who needed them and in order to do it you had to fight for it. As a Canadian citizen living in Ottawa I could make a request for a document in a format that I could use (audio). If I had to fight for it, I could go down to every minister's office and make my case, just like I did at Industry Canada, for a document that would help me be informed about decisions I had to make in order to live a full life, where I wasn’t being penalized for things. If I was a little old lady who is in her in 80s or 90s living in Sudbury and my husband died. And I did not know that I had the right to claim death benefits because I didn't have the information, I was blind didn't have any children, then I would simply make whatever arrangements were necessary in that situation. I would not ever have access to the financial benefits that are the right of every Canadian. At that point, some bells started going off for me. And it was like, how do we make information available to Canadians, who number one, don't know about certain things and should know about certain things. But because you're blind, you can't access information easily or readily, how do I get hold of the information I need? How do I make decisions about what kind of plan to get from a telecommunications company? What kind of bank account do I get or can I get? And what are the service fees? And what are my expectations? What are the terms and conditions for my credit cards? All of those things, where I have a right to, and I have an obligation to be responsible for, those kinds of instruments. Now, I know that went all over the map, but it's about information generally available to the public and it covers everything. Whether it's healthcare or it’s our finances, or it's our telecommunications plan or if it's our tax returns: it doesn't matter! This is information generally available to members of the public. And the government makes all due effort to inform you about how much money you owe the tax man. That's for me the important point. The government has the means to communicate with all of us about what we owe them, but when it comes to what government owes us as citizens in the way it delivers its information, the duty to inform is an active offer of service. And that wasn't happening for blind people. In fact, the only reason I knew I had the right to ask for information was because some friend of mine said, “by the way, Charlie did you know…” That's not about assistive technologies, but it's about where, I didn't have any assistive technologies at that point on my own because that was in 1992. I still had a talking book machine, and books that I received from the CNIB. Beth: How did that passion of yours develop into the founding of T-Base? Sharlyn: Ok - So T-Base in 1992 was interested in security. I received that fax and all of a sudden it was like, “ga-ding, ga-ding, ga-ding” -- there’s bells going off all over the place for me. And it's like, how do we use technology and automate the process for producing alternative formats on demand so we can serve the needs of blind Canadians. Because nobody else was doing it. There were people producing alternative formats. You know, if somebody made a request on Wednesday and they had some time, they would produce the document. But if there was no time to produce the document, and they had to work at night, then the prices went up. And the individual who's made the request still had to wait for six weeks to get hold of a document that was readily available to other Canadians. My thought was why can't we use technology to automate the process and let's use telephony, because it was the one piece of technology most people had access to. And use that as the interface for people who needed to gain access to braille, large print, audio, and e-text formats on computer diskette. So we developed a piece of technology, the very first piece of technology called “info touch.” I had to stamp my feet a bit with my partner, and I think I even cried a little bit… And said, ‘listen there's a marketplace here!’ I finally got my colleagues - at that point there was four of us - colleagues to pay attention and convinced them to turn the boat, not to security, but to accessibility and that's where it started. The Government of Canada wasn't all that interested when I talked to them initially. So it forced us into a different marketplace. It forced us to look at the private sector as a place to launch this service. Because banks are regulated organizations, they had the same obligation to deliver information in formats that worked for blind people, and blind people are customers of banks, because we all are. We convinced them to use our service and make some of their documents available on things like describing the terms and conditions for their credit cards, terms and conditions for their bank accounts. They were our very first customer for “info touch”, the on-demand production system for alternative formats. That's how that started, so when it came time for the bank to respond to a complaint from two very active consumers in the movement, working towards an accessible financial environment, as well as other things - Chris and Marie Stark - they came to us because we were already partners with them. That was my intro into, not assistive devices but into accessible services. Assistive devices is a singular individual productivity enhancement tool - “info-touch” had broad appeal that would serve the needs of many through one innovation. An accessible service for blind people, it was a technology-based solution for on-demand published means the alternative formats. Blind people - once they knew there was a system available and accessible through promotions by Royal Bank of Canada. Once they knew that the system was there, because they were now being told about it through the Royal Bank information line that this service was available. Then, they would call the number, which was I think at the time 1-800-769-2512. (It's not there anymore because we have moved on from that and we have a different level of service.) They would call that number. They would select the language they wanted to operate in using a telephone keypad. They would choose whether or not they wanted a business or a government or an agency. They would then go into those menus and it would be, if you were a bank, it was personal banking, corporate banking. They would go into those menus, and they would select from a list of documents the ones that they wanted. Those documents had already been created - digital electronic master files. When the person would select the document they wanted and the format they wanted it in, then as soon as it came in, it could be produced based on the digital format we were holding and it was simply a function of the output device that the information went to. So was it a Braille printer, was it going to an audio duplicator, was it going to a digital duplicator? So it was just a function of request: it just was a really simple, easy interface where you could choose what you needed. That's how it started, and it grew! And the next thing we brought on was CIBC, the one after that was TD, and the one after that was Scotia Bank. It moved into the United States - it wasn't as big in the states to start, because it was a much different market to deal with. But now the American marketplace certainly accounts for a lot more business for T-Base these days. Then from there, there was a human rights complaint against Royal Bank of Canada because a couple of very active consumers wanted to have the same access to their bank accounts as everybody else had. And they lodged a complaint because the ATMs were not accessible. From there, T-base was asked with us to work with the bank to design the audio interface for the banking machine. So the talking bank machine was a result of how people who depend on sound for interacting with technologies were able to access that system, securely, safely, fully. We created the audio interface for the talking bank machine. What that was, was just taking the screens that are presented to everybody else and turn them into audio interactive files. So instead of print, I, with a headset, could plug into a talking bank machine, listen to the screen and it would give me… In the same way that menus were being driven on the info touch, they were being driven by the talking bank machine. So we would simply choose what it was, whether it was personal finance or your savings account, chequing account, whatever, and withdraw money or put money in, or do whatever you needed to do. We did some things differently: we blacked out the screen, so that somebody was standing behind you, they couldn't see what you were doing or entering because you can be vulnerable if you can't see what's going on around you. We provided clients with the option to choose to black out their screen. And because we used headsets, you could just plug in and you know what you were doing anyway. Beth: You mentioned that this development started moving into the United States My next question is about to what extent did you work for people in Canada or did you ever correspond or cooperate with any other international organizations or individual partners in other countries like United States or elsewhere? Sharlyn: In both cases when we launched the world's first talking bank machine, that was done here in Canada down on Queen Street. We worked at that point in time with the Royal Bank of Canada and NCR Canada. Once we launched, we started to get calls from other manufacturers of ATMs. And one was Diebold, and we ended up receiving a call from the city manager for the City of San Francisco. They wanted us to see whether or not we would be able to work with them and do the same thing on a Diebold ATM machine. I stayed here in Ottawa, sent the tech and my partner down to San Francisco. They implemented the entire system within a period of, I think it was four days, and they were able to demo that in four days. Now the cost of accessibility is nothing if it's built into the system in the design phases. So all this was to do was to demonstrate that it would work. And then at that point in time they could replicate or do the same thing for Diebold. They put it into the manufacturing run and to this day the system has changed very little from what was initially there. And meanwhile we were still doing “info touch” which was the on-demand system in Canada. Info touch never made it into the US market because we had already moved beyond that at that point in time. We started to focus on the Canadian marketplace because the government had decided, yeah, this is a good idea. Then they wanted to work with us. And I remember getting a call from HRDC. They called us up and wanted us to come and meet with them and I essentially said ‘listen: you're wasting my time, you waste our money, you never do anything that you say you're going to do. I don't want to meet with you.” And this guy made a compelling argument to say “listen I'm really serious! We need to work with you on making documents available to the Canadian public in alternative formats.” So my first contract happened with the Government of Canada, I think it was probably 1995, and it was for the promotion, design and production of alternative formats of government documents. At that point in time, we started working with a number of different federal government departments and because I understood the communication barrier, I made sure that promotion was part of it, because if I didn't they would simply wait for blind people to learn about the service through osmosis, know that there was a number of there that they could call to get hold of the information they were looking for in alternative formats. So I started calling consumer-based organizations across the country that had information resources, resource centers. I could say, ‘by the way here's some documents we have available. If you have blind people who drop in and they want to have access to business centers services, or they want to have access to employment opportunities on what used to be the employment bulletin board (Which really was the bulletin boards that had paper announcements on it.) Then here's what I proposed you read that we send to you. And it's like, how to access job bulletins, or who to call at the center to find out what jobs were available if you couldn't get there. We started doing that and as people became aware of their rights, then it was like a snowball. People started asking for stuff. Three years into working with the Government in Canada they say, okay we need to change the terms of reference here - we don't want to promote anymore! And at that point in time the genie was pushing up through the top of the box, and saying ‘can't put me in here’. You could still clamp down on the top of this box, but the lock is not going to work anymore! What changed at that point in time that point, I understood that there was all kinds of alternative or adaptive technologies that existed, and I bought my first computer, which I had to teach myself how to use. And I had to also learn how to use JAWS, and Dragon Dictate and Jawbone, so that the two pieces of technology could talk to each other, and I had to teach myself how to type. I can type today. I don't use Dragon Dictate anymore and, because now I type, and I don't have to use that other piece of technology that allowed JAWS, which is a screen reader, the screen reader which is text to voice, allowed those two pieces to talk to each other. So when I got the computer I had a lot to learn and the business was going crazy. One of the reasons I didn't get the technology until then - and sometimes it's a bit of a cheap excuse - it was because in order for me to understand what blind people were continuing to go through, I actually had to be it. That allowed for the technology development to take place. I had to be an unconnected blind person in order to fully understand the problems, in order to envision a solution, that would make information more readily available to blind people. But, once I got the technology - I remember going to the Government of Canada and somebody said, ‘somebody just buy you a computer.’ And then I got the computer, and it was like, ‘somebody should take that computer away from her!’ Because it was like, it was unleashing all kinds of things and allowing much more positive things to take place. Beth: Sort of related - how do you think technology accessibility and human rights are connected? Sharlyn: Technology is absolutely critical to the engagement and participation of blind, deaf-blind, partially sighted, people with low literacy skills, in order to be able to participate and benefit or enjoy at least the same benefits as all other citizens who pay taxes or don't pay taxes. The technology makes it possible for people to participate in the mainstream. I believe that the absence of technology for blind people is certainly, potentially a challenge you can make to the Government of Canada. From the standpoint of, government is an administrative body that's responsible for governance and regulatory issues: it's passes laws, it does stuff and it's all dealing with information. It's not selling computers, it's not doing stuff like that, it's not doing that kind of business. It is providing services to Canadians. And communications is an essential service for which the government gets paid taxes as it delivers services to all Canadians, which includes me too. Technology is crucial to our involvement in governance-related matters and in making informed decisions when we go to the polling station. I may add at this point in time it is 2016 and there still is no clearly independent good solution for Canadians who are blind to vote independently at a polling station today. Why don't we have telephone voting? Why don't we have Internet voting? For me, it's the easiest, fastest way of being able to cast my vote in secret and independently, using a computer. I think government needs to get technologies into the hands of all citizens, and make it as accessible as a telephone. Beth: How have changes to adaptive or assistive technologies influenced, shaped or changed the lives of people who are blind or partially sighted in Canada or elsewhere? Sharlyn: Well the genie is out of the box! It is never going to go back in. Because technologies such as those, and every time I say this this name people need to pay attention: Apple, Apple, Apple. The Apple accessibility advantage was the start of clearly mainstream technology with the ability to deliver accessible interactions. Every product that comes out of an Apple box has accessibility built into the operating system. Apple was one of the first companies to realize, or it actually was Steve Jobs, when approached for some momentum towards philanthropy, said ‘no!’ And I take my hat off to him: He said instead he would develop accessible technologies that would be of more benefit to blind people. And not just blind people, people with disabilities generally. All of a sudden, blind people, instead of spending, buy the computer install JAWS for $1200, Jawbone’s for $900 and Dragon Dictate for $1200 plus the price of your computer (and I don't think those prices are relevant today. I think they're lower than that but not much.) You can go and buy and a MacBook Air, for example, for I don't know, $1800.00, and all of its built-in. You simply turn it on because it's become affordable and accessible and you don't have to do anything else with it. More and more blind people are buying into it. For people who are blind that have low incomes, the iPod Touch is the smallest, cheapest Internet-enabled computer you can buy. You can buy an iPod Touch for $300. If you can't afford telecommunication services - that $50 to $100 dollars a month that lots of people pay. If can’t afford that, you can go to a public library or any other government site, in order to get access to the Internet. So you can pay your bills, submit a resume, do your banking, download a book from your public library. You can you can do whatever you want. And you're doing that from a device that was the initially promoted as a holder of your music collection. It's now your book machine - that iPod Touch for less than $300 - it’s your book machine, it's your bank account, it's your navigation system, it's your music collection, it's your photographs it's your… it's everything. I no longer have a bunch of devices: I remember the bottom drawer in my bedroom was filled with technologies I had bought. From somewhere in the mid 90s, when I first got online with Apple, I had all kinds of technologies in there: I had digital tape recorders, CD players, all kinds of technologies that I needed in order to listen or record and they're all different devices. Now there's one device that I carry with me and it's my iPhone. And it's wonderful. And since Apple did that, other organizations have stepped onto the accessibility bandwagon and for very good reason. And it's, I am a customer! And for Apple ‘I am your favourite customer!’ because not only do I buy technologies for myself and upgrade them consistently, I'm buying them for my grandchildren. When I go off and do this conference that I'm going to next week, I bring technology as gifts for members who are not yet connected to the Internet. I've been doing that for a number of years from the time I first discovered that Apple had addressed this market in a way it did. We are customers. Now I must confess as I sit here today I've got a Windows PC. I've got a MacBook Air. I've got an iPad. I've got an iPhone, I've got an Apple watch. And they're all synced together, and when I go out walking I use the navigation system that is on my iPhone - Blindsquare - tells me what street I am on, how far I am from the corner. If I put in my coordinates it will tell me to turn left, turn right, move straight ahead. Teddy [service dog] makes sure I don't run into garbage boxes and other things sitting in the middle of the street. There's an app for almost anything you need and its on onesystem. I'm not carrying around a bunch of stuff when I'm going on a trip. Genies out of the box and not going back in - people who want to leverage accessibility are finding their way to greater numbers of customers who want to have services from whatever organization they represent. That's what they're interested in. Beth: Based on your experience, to what extent are technological aids or adaptive or assistive technologies important for creating more accessible and inclusive spaces of learning, such as schools or universities? Sharlyn: So here's the other thing T-Base got into: It’s essential! Number one, you need to know how to navigate within the school environment to get from one classroom to another. So technologies are important in order to deliver the important information that says your classroom number 376, and on the left-hand side. So you just walk down the hallway you can get into 376, you can go to find out where the library study spaces, you can find the Student Center, you can do all those things. Importantly you can get access to accessible learning materials. I know that there's a lot of educated blind people out there that have gone to school in order to ensure that they can get a job to help change the story about blind people. So they're out there doing their thing, and they're learning and accessibility needs to be there in order for that to happen. So, T-Base, at one point in time I believe CNIB decided back in probably 2010, decided it was no longer going to do educational material, essentially dropped the service. Well, T-Base, quick to respond said: ‘hey we can do this.’ And we did, and all of a sudden we're into the educational market, producing educational texts in Braille and whatever the student needed to have access to reflect a learning style. The difference between how I look at this stuff is mostly the healthcare community that looks at blindness like it's a patient issue, are not getting it. It's like it's not about how much vision do I have in my left versus my right eye. It's about what's your learning style? You may be visual, you may be an audio learner, you may be a tactile learner, but you have a learning style. So the way that we positioned how people learn was through our senses. And it changes everything. When you're challenging an organization on do you need to have medical information in order to make sure somebody gets the right format? It's not about that. It's about what style do people have in learning and how do you present the information in the best way possible so that they can maximize that information. So T-Base got into educational material and over the years since then, from that very initial foray, spread into the science, engineering, mathematics, music… So it's not just literary Braille anymore, we're doing all kinds of Braille, at the same time making it easier for kids to get it. But we also realize that, where technology comes in to fill the gaps as students move towards digital information on a device or on their systems, the need for Braille may diminish, somewhat but not totally, because Braille is still really important if you're doing the presentation for example. I can tell you it is not easy to do a presentation listening to a digital audio and trying to sound like a regular person visually reading from a page. It's not the same thing. If you've got Braille, you can have it sitting on your lap and just be talking away and it sounds like you're totally disconnected from any paper. Digital, accessible technology and accessibility: crucial. Beth: Based on your experience to what extent are pedagogical aids, or adaptive or assistive technology, important for creating more accessible and inclusive spaces of employment? Sharlyn: That's a really interesting question. The problem has been that, and we've seen this just looking back over the last ten years, where under one political system there was a halt in accessibility. It just stopped. There was no focus, there was no agenda for it, there was nothing. And during the last ten years, as governments have deployed technology in order to replace legacy systems. What’s happened is, they've done that without any regard to accessibility. So now we've got an infrastructure that is not accessible, or mostly not accessible. And a big number of blind employees of the federal public service that are not able to use operational systems to do their jobs. It's not just about the assistive technology, accessible technology. It's about the infrastructure must also be accessible in order to allow us to communicate with the functions of our job: That's turned into a really big problem. Those are the same systems that are in place to serve the needs of Canadians. The important part of that is all of those systems are not going to serve my needs anymore. There is legislation coming. There are policies in place. I think that the outward looking systems for employment that are being deployed in serving Canadians are good because there's laws around internet design or web site design and app design and things like that. So, services to Canadians generally are much better than what's happening internally to government, which is the operational systems for managing human resources and finance and other important operations are not accessible to the employees inside of those organizations. And that's the problem that needs to be solved really quick. Unless the infrastructure works and allows us to connect, people won't be successful in employment opportunities where the systems just don't support what they need to have happen. We can do the same thing as everybody else, but there's got to be some guarantee that when they design those systems that they're going to work. Interestingly AEBC at the Alliance for Equality of Blind Canadians developed a discussion paper somewhere probably about 2008/2009 mandating accessibility for all information communications and technology purchases for governments and regulated organizations. Calling on government through those mandates and those regulated organizations meant that anything that was purchased would have to be accessible. And it lined up with exactly what the US government was doing. It's not a hard thing to do. Demonstrating real leadership really does mean: put that in requirements definition. Just make it so. What happens when you do that is it goes out to the private sector, and the private sector being the private sector will respond accordingly because that's where innovation thrives. They see that the possibility, they see the opportunity, and they will respond. Because they may lose the first tender coming out of the government or out of a bank or other the telecom, but they're not going to lose the second one without having first addressed what do we need to have. Beth: How do you think adaptive or assistive technology is important for reducing social barriers for people who are blind or partially sighted? Sharlyn: It's crucial, but it's only one aspect of how to remove or diminish those social barriers. Technology is crucial to demonstrating to the rest of society that given the right tools we can compete on an equal basis with everybody else for jobs and other opportunities, whether it's for starting a business or we're going to go head to head on the economist position at Bank of Montreal. The tools give us that. What still is a big problem are the attitudinal stuff. People, very often, when I go out, will talk to my dog or my friend is supposed to talk to me. Part of that comes from the way in which blind people have, and I'm going to do this now, have been exploited by being made to look helpless, by being made to appear dependent. Those are attitudes that have led to successful fundraising for organizations, but have been very detrimental to creating attitudes in the general public about what our capabilities are. That needs to change. The technology is crucial because it allows us to demonstrate that we can do the same things everybody else does and we can do it in the dark so we don't need light bulbs. We’re efficient, effective employees. Info-touch started us on to how we develop things. It allowed us to communicate, to inform. When the talking bank machine came along, info touch was absolutely necessary to supporting the operations of that talking bank machine. When customers wanted to use a talking bank machine, they would contact info touch, request the instruction kit on how to use a system. And we would send it out in the format they could use so that they could go read through this material independently. Then they could go to the talking bank machine and they could use it. They would know where to plug in the headset, know exactly where the keyboard was, where on the system. They can find their money or insert their card or do all of those things. It oriented people. So it was an orientation package - probably a better way to describe it. But after that, now that you have access to your money, how about developing more financial literacy around your financial instruments? In order to stay informed, in order to access our financial data independently without having to ask the next-door neighbour, if you're alone, how much you needed to pay and ‘can you fill out this cheque for me?’ And all of those things that have huge potential for identity theft and fraud, we launched a service called “Accessibill.” “Accessibill” gave financial services clients access to private confidential and sensitive financial information in formats that could be reviewed independently by the customer. Now that's still rolling and that took us into the United States, as did the educational material. And now we're working with the largest banks in North America everywhere. And we have a lot more informed people who don't have access to technology primarily, getting hold of the information they need to make sound financial decisions about their lives. But now there's also an app for that. So there you go! Where once you go to the talking bank machine to take out money or to pay a bill or to do whatever you need to do for your financial transaction, you can now do on an iPod or an iPhone or, at this point Android has got all these things too! So the biggest companies in North America have moved away from old models of service delivery and are now depending on the commitment to the digital world. And that's where I’m at. I am digitally committed to being here fully, equally, in all aspects of this society. And I think accessibility is part of a knowledge base that we need to leverage as a country. Not just so that we grow as a country, but we're an enlightened digital economy, and there's seven billion people on the globe today. Of that, how many are not communicating because they don't have the means, they don't have the tools. In order to build a globe that we can all be in we all need to know what we need to do together to make it a good place to be: accessibility is an important tool for humanity and for growth and for - I just think it's a good thing! Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sharlyn "Charlie" Ayotte, Ottawa ON, 13 April 2016 Subject The topic of the resource accessible design, consumer advocacy Description An account of the resource An interview with Sharlyn "Charlie" Ayotte on April 13, 2016 at her Ottawa, Ontario home by Beth A. Robertson Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Interview by Beth A. Robertson, Carleton University's Disability Research Group Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Carleton University's Disability Research Group Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 13 April 2016 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Ottawa, ON 13 April 2016 ON oral history interview Ottawa Sharlyn Ayotte https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/21840/archive/files/91057de9d3e37813fccdef2876d37821.JPG?Expires=1774483200&Signature=MRZitoUGclwvTyVZaXA6Qn-M3GSMO3sS0BH0bx05C-W3ks6NVgKIkWKjAG4Aa9Ko%7EDKlGlhbNImqmlwRT-CeWt9INGQe-GsqvE6qGH8oU7mr9rFpsCV522s4bqBajy%7EuEgeokPPudnzHod06dSAPBo0NzlCzWVhVH57sh3NWjTPzHWrQdZb7M1MpUKrYNr-VHwvptbjjuvz905HOXVCroi2L2W-AwU-y8dEz1yE5O2ZTD0PnQ5MxPpcj650FiyhJp-Yg9T-8p9b3Qh42m0uRbWYXl9PqkAQV-4ECIPRxd9HTLMuXfoZppMjJzdTwxmVgD3imr6CacYV4VgQzLiKY1A__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 2bb799db20a1666f0ad17881798115f8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Private Collections Subject The topic of the resource Items related to assistive or adaptive technology and access more broadly conceived Description An account of the resource Items related to assistive or adaptive technology and access more broadly conceived, located in the homes and collections of private citizens. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The majority of photographs were taken by Beth A. Robertson with the permission of the individuals depicted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Carleton University's Disability Research Group Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource CCD National Award to Sharlyn Ayotte, 2012 Subject The topic of the resource consumer advocacy, accessibility Description An account of the resource Council of Canadians with Disabilities' National Award given to Sharlyn Ayotte, AEBC, "in recognition of your valued contributions to the Disability Rights Movement in Canada," 2012 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Photograph by Beth A. Robertson Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sharlyn Ayotte, Council of Canadians with Disabilities Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Carleton University's Disability Research Group Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Photograph by Beth A. Robertson, use with permission Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Ottawa, ON Council of Canadians with Disabilities National Award to Sharlyn Ayotte AEBC 2012 https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/21840/archive/files/5bdc8b3caabf361b3daea441f3dfc24e.JPG?Expires=1774483200&Signature=NV2ha3OnyJS4CrSVpEpvFbh-hriX7UiczGSB7C3RZ2OiiU%7EZtgP9Uv3t4o694V0tiYvB6iE1QucHPXQr3Q-VIF1zmhIdUQeGDzoB06Qqw4V39qb5FigeXMxYUlgh3yaHmSIYVZiJhCR1oZ1uXe3yPNqS2co2zQht2wolUP1BnegzbnJdq0aX-AOX7DEIC6y90OANvZD%7Efb8kPUokwmF0ZVJ-XTHk8pw6F2uNjs3bJ35glc-wxkMqKw%7EYNsSzlxQX5vI6V2W-2bEPfl0vK-9lVqtcAFWeowzbX5cmqZoiWPE4SwHKmsBqPXctvuTcYyNyML%7EJltrWA2tb%7EfKCRp8jwg__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM acce0ac134e021417845b64bf3fd2ac7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Private Collections Subject The topic of the resource Items related to assistive or adaptive technology and access more broadly conceived Description An account of the resource Items related to assistive or adaptive technology and access more broadly conceived, located in the homes and collections of private citizens. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The majority of photographs were taken by Beth A. Robertson with the permission of the individuals depicted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Carleton University's Disability Research Group Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource SCOAP Award to T-Base Communications, RBC and NCR, 1998 Subject The topic of the resource assistive or adaptive technology, accessible design Description An account of the resource Society of Canadian Office Automation Professionals award given to T-Base Communications, RBC and NCR for their collaborative work on the design and development of the Talking ATM, c.1998 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Photograph by Beth A. Robertson Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sharlyn Ayotte, SCOAP Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Carleton University's Disability Research Group Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1998 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Photograph by Beth A. Robertson, use with permission Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Ottawa, ON for Talking ATM RBC and NCR 1998 SCOAP Award given to T-Base Communications https://d1y502jg6fpugt.cloudfront.net/21840/archive/files/5308e1a5d7b63e07e9e0f3b1403ee3b8.jpg?Expires=1774483200&Signature=aTXiKCGO1TYfhkqUyRnsjauvVzGGnqPHYlTfN4JFjxivPlUqK9-iJNUEBkaOq26%7EiycmYMa1vDCkL4q0tnDL3WI1-e-u6gPgnYB7jVWdkCfgo9KHjOGlUhmVH46lqGbda6WgMOKfrDhZ%7EKRFh3KdSq1fR8J8RylOwJMhPg1zJkiKZ2p2rczjMTZiNg-Q8qi2VX6bKD1RF-NA%7Er900Ng83s6Yj0oyKbr6C%7Elc3Kt8yfMmgc3ahrORQonTlOl25kT97hXRMTSVmeiVGm%7ESzGs4UrJ4NJsZ%7EJEetcgnwVA%7EFj%7ER-8u6dnXvlcBTJ4uKupRbNmIwpy79IHgm1YaJGHXwug__&Key-Pair-Id=K6UGZS9ZTDSZM 1399fad0e9a483fb794759bc8c8d4b5c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Private Collections Subject The topic of the resource Items related to assistive or adaptive technology and access more broadly conceived Description An account of the resource Items related to assistive or adaptive technology and access more broadly conceived, located in the homes and collections of private citizens. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The majority of photographs were taken by Beth A. Robertson with the permission of the individuals depicted. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Carleton University's Disability Research Group Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sara Kirke Award, given to Sharlyn Ayotte 2009 Subject The topic of the resource accessible design, consumer advocacy, assistive and adaptive technology Description An account of the resource Sharlyn Ayotte received the Sara Kirke Award from Carleton University's Sprott School of Business in 2009 in recognition of her achievements as a woman high tech entrepreneur. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Photograph by Beth A. Robertson Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Sharlyn Ayotte, Carleton University's Sprott School of Business Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Carleton University's Disability Research Group Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Photograph by Beth A. Robertson, use with permission Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Ottawa, ON Carleton's Sprott School of Business 2009 Sara Kirke Award Sharlyn Ayotte T-Base Communications